(In reply to comment #0)

Possible alternative if preferred by ops:
wikimedia-lgbt-l@lists.wikimedia.org

The -l is against https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Standardization

Thehelpfulonewiki wrote:

Yes, Nemo is correct we are dropping the -l for all future lists.

admin wrote:

Okay - great - so then as an alternative:
wikimedia-lgbt@lists.wikimedia.org

Given that there are but four participants so far, I'm going to suggest that this list is premature. In addition, that's an awfully broad topic; I'd prefer that it be regional or topical.

admin wrote:

I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

The four listed are the coordinators and folks involved with maintaining that page. There are 10+ folks involved via IRC (include at least two WMF staffers) and more than that interested in LGBT events at Wikimania (such as the scheduled LGBT meetup). We're also working on a grant to put some outreach ideas into action. At least one grant for this purpose was previously approved. I'm not sure how LGBT outreach isn't topical. Regional LGBT outreach would be, in my opinion, a mistake and out of form with what's been done successfully by other global efforts. We'd then just need another list to house the global conversations we have now (participants are currently in US, EU and India). There are already project-specific LGBT projects, this is an attempt to coordinate those efforts cross-wiki and do broader Wikimedia LGBT outreach rather than just the usual English Wikipedia outreach that's been done for the LGBT communities. So I'm not sure what the advantages of a regional or "topical" list would be..

I'm confident we could easily get a few dozen folks on this list fairly quickly. Not having it ready before Wikimania would be a disappointment and hinderance. We would most likely just get the mailing list hosted elsewhere - which then presents long-term issues.

I disagree with the Philippe Beaudette's assessment too.

The project is a topical one and have a really concrete agenda:
i. discuss LGBT issues on the Wikimedia projects ;
ii. outreach ;
iii. invite the board to vote a non discriminative resolution ;
iv. organize a presence during hackathons.

Given the existence of other broad lists such as glam@lists.wikimedia.org, it wouldn't be unusual to see the creation of a lgbt@lists.wikimedia.org, I don't think.

That said, I wouldn't really trust either proposed user to be a moderator of it. The issue here isn't necessarily whether there should be a list or not, in my opinion. The issue is that a few users have come to Wikimedia with a very clear POV/agenda (advocating for LGBT issues) and I'm not sure that Wikimedia ought to be advancing that POV/agenda.

Oh my word, the shadowy Gay Agenda strikes again! Not happy with wanting to destroy Western morality and attempting to recruit innocent children to the dastardly Gay Lifestyle... now they want to infiltrate Wikipedia with well-sourced and high-quality articles on LGBT history by finding potential outreach opportunities with LGBT-related groups and organisations.

There are a lot of important and notable topics related to LGBT history and experience which we don't cover on a variety of Wikimedia sites for whatever reason. I have a list of dozens and dozens of notable people from British history who we don't have articles on English Wikipedia about. English Wikisource has no LGBT or gay history portal or categories (yet). English Wikinews has, mostly thanks to my laziness, failed to cover much of the same-sex marriage debates in the US or the UK despite wide public interest.

I'm not going to try and claim there's systemic bias, but there is an opportunity here to do better, just as there are with broader gender issues and with more widely-acknowledged systemic bias issues.

I cannot deny my militant agenda off-wiki in demanding basic civil equality and not having much time for people who consider me a sub-human, morally degraded Sodomite. On wiki, my agenda is simply building free culture, and to do that, we need to cover the contributions of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people too. Outside of the fevered fantasies of the most extremely bigoted, I fail to see how this is controversial.

There's dozens and dozens of historical archives, museums, groups and communities who can help provide material and support the development of fair, neutral and non-agenda-driven material on LGBT history. Having a place to co-ordinate that across wikis and across countries seems pretty uncontroversial to me.

If the people responsible for deciding on mailing list matters consider either Fae or Varnent to not be suitable, I'm happy to administer the list. I have no evil shadowy intentions and I know how to use mailman.

admin wrote:

Tom would be a great addition as a moderator and I think ultimately we will want at least a couple more from the LGBT Outreach Project and hopefully at least one staff.

As usual MZMcBride is objecting to my very existence, so I am not going to respond to those unwarranted claims.

I agree that there's no reason why this should be restricted to some geography (it wouldn't make sense); additionally, in the bugzilla archives I don't see any new list like this (which doesn't fit to other lists) rejected because of the limited number of initial proponents.

(In reply to comment #7)

The issue is that a few users have come to Wikimedia with a very
clear POV/agenda (advocating for LGBT issues) and I'm not sure that Wikimedia
ought to be advancing that POV/agenda.

We already have mailing lists with a clear POV/agenda, for instance the gendergap list which is very similar to the proposed list.
Anyway, there are all sorts of lists, even very personal or narrow ones, and surely creating one doesn't "advance"/privilege anyone's aims.

(In reply to comment #9)

As usual MZMcBride is objecting to my very existence, so I am not going to
respond to those unwarranted claims.

I don't object to your existence. I'm very wary of you and anyone else who comes to Wikimedia looking to use it as a platform/mouthpiece for your beliefs (regardless of whether I personally agree with them). I'm equally wary of MyWikiBiz and many others. Don't flatter yourself.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that the guy running wikiqueer.org might not be the most neutral moderator on a _highly political_ topic. As I said previously, it wouldn't be unusual for a list like this to be created (glam, gendergap, and other lists have similar traits). But I don't believe that putting partisans in charge of the list is a wise idea. Perhaps doing so will result in no harm, but I don't understand why you'd take the risk.

There's an IRC adage about anyone who wants ops not being a good candidate for them. The same is true of mailing lists. If there are a number of people interested in seeing this mailing list exist, it shouldn't be difficult to find a few volunteer moderators/list admins.

admin wrote:

mzmcbride's comments are irrevelant as I've said multiple times in Ops IRC that I'm fine with whomever moderating and had volunteered because I was familiar with Mailman, and that ideally I'd like at least one WMF staffer as well.

I'm more interested in getting the list up than winning some stupid argument over my alleged bias. :/

mzmcbride: again - stop commenting on my activities unless you have some evidence to back your imagination or constructive comments that actually help. You do great tech work that I respect - please focus on that and leave me be.

If you seek a neutral list moderator/administrator, I can join the ship.

I, too, offer to serve as a neutral moderator.

admin wrote:

Brandon and Derekson - thank you both - that's wonderful! Heatherw has also offered to help moderate if it helps with getting the list created.

admin wrote:

Is there any sort of ETA or confirmation on if our request is being reconsidered? If not, will likely create the listserv on WikiQueer this weekend since I will be out of town next week and do not want us scrambling right before our intended usages at Wikimania.

admin wrote:

Also - just to confirm - Fae is also willing to let the other folks moderate instead of him if it helps speed the creation of the list along.

To folks that indicated they'd moderate - unless you object - I will add you as moderators on the WikiQueer based list - should it come to that.

admin wrote:

This list has been created, hopefully only for temporary housing, on WikiQueer's mailman install:

http://lists.wikiqueer.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lgbt

wikimedia-lgbt@lists.wikiqueer.org

Thehelpfulonewiki wrote:

Okay, so I spoke with Philippe, he tried to add a comment on Sun, Jun 24, 2012 to say that he was willing to reconsider, but it seems that it didn't go through.

He's happy for the list to be created, but strongly suggests that the list does not maintain an archive for the purposes of confidentiality.

I will make Tom and Brandon the list admins.

Thehelpfulonewiki wrote:

List has been created, https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/lgbt, lgbt@lists.wikimedia.org.

admin wrote:

Excellent - thank you all! :)

We have deactivated the WikiQueer housed list and will delete it in a week (just in case we forgot something - and I'll be gone next week).